Episode Transcript
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Welcome to the second episode of the LibOwl. We have here with us today Ms. Amalia Zavacopoulou and Mr. Hercules Lianos, both teachers at ACS.
Would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Yes, I'd be very happy to. First of all, I'd like to thank you for having us. My name is Ms. Zavacopoulou. I teach in the high school. I teach two interdisciplinary team taught courses, humanities and combo nine. I first came to ACS Athens in 2010, and I was a writing studio assistant. And I'm very happy to be teaching in high school. Now, my academic background, I have a bachelor's degree in European Social and Political Studies from University College London and then a master's in print journalism from Westminster University.
[00:01:06] Speaker C: Okay. I'm Hercules Llanos. I came to ACS in 2014.
I guess I did a career change.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you were in a different field. Not in education.
[00:01:16] Speaker C: Right, Right. I mean, in publishing, a little bit of newspaper marketing, wedding and baptism photography.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: So did my wife, actually, in the past. Well, she worked. She is a photographer in the past. She did also commission work when we were in London, and she covered a few weddings and stuff, so she didn't like it.
[00:01:36] Speaker C: I think the same with me, because I enjoyed photography. But then when it became, you know, I guess a professional capacity, however short it was a stint, I realized it wasn't something I wanted to pursue.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Do you have any clients who are unhappy?
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Well, you know, I think there was too much stress in not taking photograph of Auntie so and so. And, you know, I had no idea that, you know, Auntie so and so was Auntie so and so and needed to be in the album, so.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So, okay, photography. And how did you come here?
[00:02:07] Speaker C: Well, I got my teaching certification, and then I needed to do a mentorship. I reached out to Ms. Kathy Jcinides.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:02:16] Speaker C: Who is also my former teacher here. And Mr. Medus was also my former teacher. And then I think the rest is history. And now I teach with Ms. Amalia. Humanities. I teach combo 10 with Ms. Koklas, and IB class in media literacy and production.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. I have to say, it's quite a change from the last guests. We had both with background in science, which is very different from mine, obviously. And with you guys is probably as close as to Bayern Field as well, because my doctorate is in classical philology. And then I studied cultural studies. Now I'm doing a second doctorate in histories. And we all started as writing studio assistants. You too, Hercules, Right? That's Right, yes. Yeah. So we all started at the learning commons with the writing studio and then we went to different directions, referring to the learning commons. It's a unique department in the administration of the school because it's the only department that covers literally every single school, elementary, middle school, academy, regardless of grades, regardless of subjects. And it gives you a very wide, complete perspective on how the school works, what the students need, how our colleagues actually work and what their needs are.
[00:03:34] Speaker C: I agree. But then at the same time it's also very individualized as well. Right. Because students come in and we have lots of one on one sessions as well.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah, but you can strike a balance. You have a global perspective.
[00:03:47] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: With, how can I say, personalized approach.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: I think it's a very good training not only to get the insight on the ACS culture in the community, but also as a teacher in the classroom. Because then you have a, you know, you have a better understanding of where the students who are in your class, what they've done before. So you see a sense of, you know, progression and alignment that informs your teaching.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: You were speaking about understanding the ACS culture because at a certain point we were all new in this place. You came here. Remind me in. You just said it. What year?
[00:04:18] Speaker B: 2010.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: 2014.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: 2014. I'm the baby. I arrived in 2018.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: Four years.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Every four years a new one come. Where were you before?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: That's a really interesting question because I.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Tend to do that.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you. I had just moved back to Greece permanently, where I had spent the previous 10 years in London.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Same. I was five years in London and well, then Brexit happens. So we left.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I came back in 2008.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: You know the really good time to come back to Greece before the crisis.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Good timing.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect timing. Where I had just finished my degrees and I had also worked as a secondary school teacher at a school in Hackney.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: A girls school in Hackney.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: How was it?
[00:05:01] Speaker B: It was great.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Well, it was my first introduction into teaching.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Oh, so it was your first thing.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah, because I was involved in a program called Teach First.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: I have an interesting story to tell.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Please do.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: So it's my final year at university and I'm thinking, what am I going to do next year? I don't have a plan. I haven't been on top of things. I know that I'm good grades, I have a lot of potential, so what am I going to do? So I'm sitting, having breakfast at my aunt's house and I'm looking through the newspaper. And there's this huge feature on this program called Teach First.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:33] Speaker B: And it had just started in London. It was the second year that it was going to run and it took students from good academic universities. And then with just six weeks training, they would work for two years in inner city London schools.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: At the same time get leadership training. So that then once you go into business, that was the whole idea, to move into business and then to always keep an eye out for supporting education and, you know, underprivileged communities. I never made it to the business part. I stayed in the teaching.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: So I had just finished that process and I wanted to move back to Greece. But before I moved back to Greece, I took a four month hiatus where I traveled around South America.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: Where I started in Peru.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Then I went to Bolivia and Chile and then Argentina.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: I love the Spanish twang while you pronounce it. Yes. No, Guatemala.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: No Guatemala.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Because, you know, at the end of my first year here at acs, I was actually offered a job in Guatemala.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: The sliding doors.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: I know, right. No, I didn't take it. Obviously I stayed here. But was it interesting? Guatemala. All right. Okay. Hercules, where were you before?
[00:06:47] Speaker C: Well, I returned from the United states, I guess 1998. So since then I've been in Greece with one year in Leicester, where I went off to uni for my masters.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: Where? Sorry?
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Leicester.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Oh, Leicester.
[00:06:59] Speaker C: Okay, Leicester. So London, I guess I would shoot off to every now and then just to visit friends and whatnot. Leicester was a quiet existence.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: We are all bound to London somehow. To the English. I was there actually two weeks ago. We were there for five days. It was basically the first time my wife and I spent time together there after Brexit. And you can see the difference actually from. From the pre Brexit and to the after one. So. Yeah, well, because provided that, for example, I was born in Italy and there's a lot of Italians in. In London and almost all of them in the food and beverage industry. So you basically can't find a single bar or restaurant in London without at least one Italian working there in some capacity as a barista, as a cook. So there is an insane amount of Italians in London. And we always identified London very similar to the United States, for example, as a place where you have a lot of opportunities that is very welcoming to foreigners, where everyone can find some sort of job or activity. And now you can see the shift in the perception, and not just in the perception, in the availability of jobs that are there. Plus, you know, that London, I'm pretty sure you have heard or you have seen it, if you have gone there in the past few years, has gone through a massive process of gentrification. So it's a fantastic place if you belong to the very small percentage of the so called civilized world that can afford to splurge without a second thought.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: Right.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: And New York is the.
[00:08:45] Speaker C: New York is the same process.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: Yes. New York, especially in the past 20 years, has gone through the same process. And what's happening that we used to live in a fairly famous and wealthy neighborhood because we were living in Wandsworth between Chelsea and the Parliament area, next to the MI6 building. So we used to live in this complex that's called now Embassy Gardens. We share the gardens with the US Embassy. That's why it's called Embassy Gardens. And when we were living there, when we left in 2017, there were two main luxury condos complexes. That was one was St. George Wharf and the other one was Embassy Gardens. We have come back seven years later and they literally build a whole mini city, all of luxury condos. So if you remember the topography of London like 10 years ago, Elephant and Castle, the backyard of Wandsworth, Battersea park, that area, now all that area that connects Wandsworth train station to Elephant and Castle and Elephant and Castle to Battersea power Station, they are only luxury condos where an apartment goes for in pounds, 3,000 pounds per, per month for a 60 square meters apartment.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: And if you remember what Elephant in Castle was 20, 30 years ago, it was inconceivable to have that kind of prices because it's very elegant, luxurious, quiet.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: Pretty neat, and it raises the prices of the surrounding areas as well.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: But what saddens me is that it's very standardized.
I mean, you can be there and be in any elegant gated community condo in Singapore or in Hong Kong or in Seou or in New York or in Oslo, and you won't see the difference. That's where I have issues with. Honestly, having options is great, but being that the only reality, that's what frightens me.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: Well, I think and also when you visit a place, you know, when we travel, we want to experience, you know, a culture that perhaps is one we're not that familiar with, that might, you know, expand our way of viewing and understanding the world. And so when we have this sort of gentrification where you said, you know, whether I was in London or I could have been in a number of.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Other, you could be anywhere else in the world, it wouldn't have made a difference.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Right. So it ceases to be a little less London.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Yes, that's. That's what, what I'm saying. Yeah. Because, well, we are humanities teachers, so I often remember the, you know, the beginning of the histories by Herodotus. Right. And he said that I'm quoting almost by heart here. This is the history and the histories of the narration of Herodotus, of Halicarnassus. I travel, I did research to write this. And I wrote this because the great actions of both Greeks and barbarians could be known and remembered.
[00:12:04] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: And in the end, that's why you actually travel and you see things differently from your comfort zone, from the area where you usually live, because there is so much more to know. And if you only stay in this place, you're missing out.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: I think what made him special also is that he tried to have an open mind and unbiased assessment of what.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: He experienced. And if he didn't know something, sometimes he would let his audience understand that too. Oh yeah, he would say, so it is told to me. So he wouldn't.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He made it. He put a disclaimer there. I often when I talk to students or to other colleagues or friends and say, okay, think of for example, Herodotus, but Thucydides as well. All the other historians goes for Roman historians as well. And when we have this speech given by Xerxes or Cyrus, things Xenophon, et cetera, and Circes told the troops this and that. Okay, how do we know Xers actually say that? Of course we didn't. They made it up. Or they rely on memories of people were present. But you know that memories lie. So memories are wildly inaccurate. You wanted to add something.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: How reliable is memory? I mean, and we only.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: It's wildly unreliable. Yeah.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: And you know, we're going to get a bit tok here.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Well, but we know it's because we know that we have selective memory. We remember what we want to remember, what suits the idea we had of a certain event.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: I always like to explain it how like memory is like a Wikipedia page. It's not like. Yeah, that makes sense because a Wikipedia page is kind of like updated and you can add further details.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: I remember that there is this. Okay, you guys are familiar with Mark Bloch as an historian. My co authors and producers know that I often quote Mark Bloch as an example of research method. And he actually wrote a small pamphlet about his experience as a historian in World War I. And since he was an historian, obviously he tried to explain certain processes in people remembering World War II, which he fought in. He actually got promoted on the field, actually. He started as, I think, a sergeant and he ended up as a captain. I remember he cites this. He mentions this episode that there was a certain battle and he spoke to soldiers who fought in the battle with him as well. And they all remember that it was raining, etc. Etc. And then he went to check the weather report, and it hadn't been rain for weeks.
Yes. But the thing is that since you're in the trench, since you're fighting and the atmosphere is grim and miserable and sad, a sunny day doesn't suit your reconstruction, your recollection of the event, so you reconstruct it in a way that suits the feeling you have. In tok. This comes out very often. You were saying? I'm sorry.
[00:15:24] Speaker C: No, no. I think if we don't lie, we filter. Right.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Or we filter. Yes. Obviously you remember that part in the Harry Potter books when Harry is investigating memories of Voldemort in his professor against the Dark Arts.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: I have a confession.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: You never read Harry Potter.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: I have never read Harry Potter.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: And you're still welcome on the podcast, so it's fine.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: I'm glad you're so forgiving.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: There are worse things than not having a wr. The Harry Potter.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: I leave them to my son, though, so I will. I will catch up.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: So let me ask.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Sure. What?
[00:15:59] Speaker C: I mean, Harada just went and he, you know, tried to find out about the world and record what he. What he saw in events. What mindset do you guys have when you go to another place?
[00:16:10] Speaker B: What mindset do I have?
[00:16:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, why. Why. Why do you.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Why do I travel?
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Why do you travel? Because you guys just came back from.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Our first overnight field.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: The field trip right in Mystra.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: No, not a field trip, Dr. No.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: It'S not a field trip.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: It's a field study trip.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: It's field study trip. Yeah.
Speaking of the importance of keywords. Yes. Field study. Yes. Because they. They did a lot of studying.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: A lot of study. And it's directly related to our curriculum.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And was to mistras. Right?
[00:16:38] Speaker B: To mistras.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: And we also visited the monastery in Daphne near Athens. And in. Because the office of our study.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: So.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: So, yeah, the focus of our study this year is Byzantine Empire and Faith centered Empire. We're moving on to Islam shortly and we're attempting to answer the question, what gives life meaning through our study of civilizations.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Okay, so.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: What's the answer?
Do you have an answer?
[00:17:08] Speaker C: I think we struggle with that question throughout the Year.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: Well, humanity has been struggling for quite a few millennia.
[00:17:15] Speaker C: But I mean, we.
The reason I field study are, you know, they're central to the humanities course because I guess in pursuit of answering that question, we have to examine, well, how did people throughout time struggle with their own existence and the purpose of their existence? And by visiting sites like Mistra or later, we're going to go to Florence and Siena. That's in Rome.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: Oh, you are?
[00:17:44] Speaker C: Yes. We see how they, how the values, they help, you know, what, what informed their values and how their values were expressed through their architecture, through the art, through the literature.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: Okay, question philosophy, which is. Yeah, I can relate. But thing is, they can see that on Google Maps, for example. They can see that on Google Earth. Why? Traveling physically in a certain place, you think, why is that valuable?
[00:18:11] Speaker B: We asked our students, we debriefed today, the trip to Mistra, and we asked them to share what new insights they gained and what was their favorite part, the least favorite part? And then our final question was, would you recommend this field study to future humanities students? And I think it was a resounding guess from everyone because they talked about how different it feels and ultimately how differently it affects their understanding of the content by actually visiting the piece. Because you engage there in five senses, you notice details.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: I think that's a difference. Yeah. That, you know, it reminded a definition that one of my teachers in when I was in high school gave us. We were visiting Rome, we were visiting the Basilica of St. Peter. And you know that the columnade by Bernini is shaped like two arms stretching in a hug because it symbolizes the hug of all Christianity, overseen, obviously, by the Vatican. Yeah, I love that. Anyway, it needs to be overseen by the Vatican, obviously. And she was my ancient Greek, Latin, Italian and history teacher.
[00:19:26] Speaker C: Is that all?
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah, and geography and civics. So she covered basically half of the curriculum back then. And I remember she said that architecture is the only art form that in order to be understood, needs to be experienced in the flesh. You need to be present there. If you see a building on a book, or even on a simulation, you don't get the same feeling. You need to see it there in person, otherwise you miss part of the experience.
[00:20:01] Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean, more so. Or we would say. Right. Other. Other art forms as well.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: But if you're not, I can think of another one. Actually, I'm going to tell you later.
[00:20:10] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: I wouldn't, I wouldn't question this teacher. She teaches like, lots of, lots of subjects.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: No, I'm not.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: I was thinking it Myself, you know, because artworks as well.
[00:20:18] Speaker C: Artworks. But I would sense architecture because we, you know, we go through different styles. We do church, middle and tinted and the Gothic, where it's very, very huge, very, very tall. And then, you know, then it's brought back down, made to the measure of man. Right. You know, in the building. So. And many times when, unless you're there in, in the space, you don't really understand, you know, its significance fully. But then of course there's also art as well. And I agree that, you know, with the architecture, because it is. We're talking about three dimensional space.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
[00:20:50] Speaker C: But again, I mean, unless you see Van Gogh's paint, the actual painting, you know, it's different.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Yeah. You get a different feel because remember that the. Was this seminal work in semiology and it was the work of art in the age of reproduction. And the idea is, I mean, the question behind it was what meaning does it have to see an original art piece if it can be reproduced infinitively, relentlessly on different media? And one of the answers is that the experience is different because one thing is seeing the Mona Lisa, the Louvre, well, also from a distance and in a glass cage.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: It's kind of hard.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. It's kind of hard. Okay, I'll change example. We all know the Scream by Munch, right? Right. Okay. One of the most famous and most more often reproduced, the most expensive, it is the mask behind the Scream movie franchise. Yeah. And I actually saw it in person last summer. We spent about a week in Oslo and there is the Munch Museum, so you get to see it. And they have several, several versions of the Scream and they change it every, I think four or six hours. They exhibit a different one. And obviously it's, it's something that everyone, every art lover has a scene on some book, etc, but you have the actual thing there. And it's just different. When you go to Florence and you're going soon, you said, and let's say you are in Piazza della Signoria where there is the City hall building. And the City hall building in front has. On the left, David, and on the right they have the. I think if. Remember the sculpture by Baccio Bandinelli. And right next to it there's Salinis Pers and then there is Loggia Dellanzi right behind the Perseus. And it's different than seeing it on a book. Come on. You have this Stendhal syndrome that you literally are short of words because it's too much beauty, too much Emotions going through.
[00:23:19] Speaker C: When you see something like that Baudrillard, where he spoke about the simulacra.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Yes, right.
[00:23:23] Speaker C: Where basically our understanding of life is on its imitations.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. A bit. You have the real thing there. So it's. You need to experience. I believe that one of the core principles of the importance of traveling is that you get to experience things in the context they were thought for. I was saying that, for example, architecture and art is one reasons. For one of the many reasons that people might find for traveling. And I was going to say, and I was telling you, okay, I can think of another one. The other one is food, honestly. And you know, I believe it's the ultimate pleasure. Nothing beats food.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: When I. Because I did my year abroad in Italy, I spent. I live in Florence for six months and I went to university there and everything. So I had eaten pasta before, I had eaten pizza before I had eaten all these Italian delicacies, the focaccia, everything. Living above a bakery every day was just amazing that I could just go down and access these.
[00:24:25] Speaker C: So unless you travel to the place, you could experience only fragments. Yeah, well, not the whole.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: Think of this. Remember that epicure divided thing. Divided everything between things we need and things we enjoy. Right, right. And understanding what we actually need leads to actual happiness.
[00:24:45] Speaker C: Foods, both.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: And food is the only thing that's both. I can't find. I can't think of a single activity that humanity has been doing that is both enjoyable and an absolute primal need.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: And when you said you get fragments unless you. You try the food in the place where it was supposed to be enjoyed, you get fragments, for example. Italians take this very seriously. So, you know, to the point that we have different categories in defining food. We have something called DOP and doc. Doc means denominazione di origina controlata.
[00:25:31] Speaker C: That explains it to me in Greece as well.
[00:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's something all over Europe, actually. But I'm mostly familiar with the Italian use. And DOP is denominazone di origine proteta, meaning that one is controlled, one is heavily protected. Control is the highest level. For example, parmigiano, unless it's made in a very specific area of Italy between Parma and Regimelia that are about one hour away from where I was born.
So unless it is made specifically in this area between Parma and Regimilia, and it comes from a very specific kind of cows that are fed only grass grown there with a very specific technique, and they drink water that has specific characteristics, and you get the milk for making The Parmigiano from this very specific cow key is on specific. It's not Parmigiano.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: That's the Controllato.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: That's controllato. Yes, yes. I don't think that, I don't think that the consortium that brains over Parmigiano is going to listen to this, but I think that Parmigiano is the also place.
[00:26:42] Speaker C: Right. I mean for.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: And it needs to be placed. Yes, of course.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: If I'm eating, let's say barbecued sardine, it might be wonderful, but it's in midtown Manhattan. You know, it's the best taste wise sardine I've ever had. But if I'm having a good barbecued sardine and I'm at, you know, in Mani and there's fishing boats and the seas Barbie, I'm going to enjoy my meal more because I'm in that space and I think that's part of the.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Joy, like why people. I mean, at least that's why I travel to experience these things firsthand. They inform my knowledge of the world and I guess my understanding of our other essential question, what it means to be human.
[00:27:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautiful because that's what goes to the core of what we are, why we do things in a certain way, what defines us as human, that we are able to experience these kind of things individually and selectively.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: We've spoken about art, architecture, food. When we go somewhere. What about the people?
[00:27:47] Speaker A: That's interesting.
[00:27:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, do we go for the people also?
[00:27:53] Speaker A: Okay, clarify what you mean. We go for the people.
[00:27:55] Speaker C: Well, because if you, if you visit another country, we said, okay, we're interested in the food, we're interested in seeing what's produced there as far, as, you know, aesthetics are concerned. Right, but there's also. There are people there.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: I mean, so humans.
[00:28:12] Speaker C: Humans, yeah.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:13] Speaker C: So, you know, does that play a role? I mean, do you try to. I mean, just as important. If I go somewhere, just as important as going to the museum is also I want to go to the marketplace and see.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: Yes, that makes sense.
[00:28:27] Speaker C: You know, what's going on.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Hang out in a local cafe.
[00:28:30] Speaker C: In a local cafe or whatever it is. Right. And just, you know, take that in.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: It depends, I think, on how you're going there. Meaning, I remember that Bruce Chatwin once provided the definition of a tourist and a traveler. And I'm paraphrasing. And what's the difference between a tourist and a traveler? The return ticket. If you don't have a return ticket, you are a traveler. If you have the return ticket. You are a tourist. As a tourist, I find it's difficult. I find challenging to mingle or to understand the reality of a place. I used to say, okay, unless you have either paid rent or build or bills or taxes in a country, you are a tourist.
[00:29:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: The structure kind of doesn't really allow you to experience local life. I feel authentically or genuinely. And I think it goes back to what we talked about before. This issue of gentrification.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: This issue of kind of maybe even globalization in terms of. Of what's popular and everything. So, I mean, that's something that. When I went on my famous trip to South America that I mentioned earlier, it's something that I went out of my way to find.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: I wanted to see, you know, what people who lived here, how they lived, what they thought. I even made friends.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: You know something?
[00:29:57] Speaker C: You were there for a while, though. You were there for months.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Okay, let's go back to London for a moment. We are all familiar with the city and somewhat. But somehow I was a tourist, Amalia and I. Yes, you. The thing is, go back to Leicester.
[00:30:11] Speaker C: At the end of the weekend.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: No, good point. We have been there as tourists, we have lived there as locals, and we have made friends there as well. And the area where we were living were on one side, on one bank of the Thames, was opposite to the Tate Modern. And sometimes we had friends, obviously, coming over for dinner. So if they came by train, we would pick them up at the nearest tube station, and then we would walk 5, 10 minutes to our place. And we had this friend of ours, one of my wife's models, I remember, and it was the first time coming, and she was coming visiting to our place, and my wife picked her up. I was there as well. And she was saying the several advantages of the area, very closely connected to everything. And she said, there's a joke, and, you know, it's very nice to have a night walk along the Thames.
And this person was born and raised in England, a few kilometers from London, graduated from college in London, and she candidly asked, what's the Thames?
[00:31:22] Speaker C: Right.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: There you go. Yes. And. Okay. It might be an extreme thing that when you are a local in a place, you take things for granted.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: The river, she calls it the river.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: No, no, she didn't know that that river was called the Thames.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the river. Yes, the river. Yeah. I was born near the bank of the main Italian river, the Po River. And I have always known that the river Is called Po. I'm sorry. It's like you live in New York City and you don't know that's the Hutz. Confidentially, you might call it the river, but you know, it's the Hudson. You see, but most people, I assume that most people know it. It's the Hudson. But in that case the themes was. Okay, what's the themes? Because you take it for granted.
I think it's a double edged sword. Sword being a local versus being a tourist. Being a tourist, you want to experience as much as possible.
[00:32:17] Speaker C: That's true. Because I think very often I go to a lot of sites and when visitors come, you know, they'll come with a list that they want to see this, they want to see that. And sometimes they might even come up with something that you haven't seen before or you haven't been in years.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:32:32] Speaker C: And then, you know, you go. Because they've come and they want to see it as tourists.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: I remember it's a way of rediscovering your own city, I think if you, you know, there's. As a tourist.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah, because you see it with different eyes. You guys remember the show Friends?
[00:32:50] Speaker B: Yeah, of course.
[00:32:50] Speaker A: Okay. And so no Harry Potter, but Friends.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: No, no, no Friends. It was on TV every afternoon when I was growing up.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: It still is actually because now it's on Netflix. The last season of Friends. There is this part where Monica and Chandler are adopting a baby from this young girl and they fly her over to New York so she can experience the city. And we see Chandler coming home from the first touristic trip he took in his own city. And his cover, head to toe in New York memorabilia with a T shirt. I love New York. With the crown of the Statue of Liberty. And he shouts New York. It's awesome.
Because he never experienced New York as a tourist. And then you have this sudden revelation of beauty and things that since you live there, you never thought that you needed to experience.
[00:33:49] Speaker C: Take things for granted. Right?
[00:33:51] Speaker A: We take things for granted. Yeah.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: In a way we could say that to travel you don't need to go far.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: Yeah, you can say that, you know.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Mentally or learn something new or notice something and view it from a different perspective. Even in your nearer surroundings. Of course it's best if you go far and you see something different.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: Well, yeah. I think that what Hercules mentioned just now about humans is like in the end, what actually makes the difference.
[00:34:20] Speaker C: What did I mention?
[00:34:22] Speaker A: The people. The people. Do you go there for the people, et cetera. Because in the end that's what makes the reality of a city. Somehow we are all limited by our own perception of things. We always think that what we are doing here and now is what matters. And we forget that there are so many different realities, so many different ways of thinking, of living and what it can be absolutely groundbreakingly important for us. It's completely pointless for people that live 10 kilometers away.
[00:34:56] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: So. And I believe that traveling makes you understand that whatever you hold important is all relative. There are some things that are universally true. Okay, fine. That all the things that make you either miserable or happy are low relative. What changes? I mean, what makes the difference is how you look at them in a certain perspective.
[00:35:19] Speaker C: No, absolutely.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: So it gives more like agency and power to you.
[00:35:23] Speaker A: Yes. I believe that traveling. I mean, my wife always has said since we first met, that traveling is the best education there is. Nothing beats it because again, you see things somehow unfilter the way they are supposed to be lived, to be experienced.
[00:35:42] Speaker C: I agree with you.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: You agree? It took me a few years actually to agree with her, actually. Then I realized why.
[00:35:47] Speaker C: It's at the center of the humanities course as well, I think, too.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: And it's, you know, all these students in the past, they always come back to us and they always talk about how this course has shaped, you know, the way they view the world. But it's kind of shaped their relationship to learning because, you know, they always say, oh, I'm never gonna. You know, whenever I go to a museum, I always, you know, try to take the historical context and everything into.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: That's why. That's why we have humanities in school. Alrighty. I'm glad we close on this Mary note. Thank you guys for coming. Thank you for Hercules, Amalia, thank you for having us. It's been a pleasure.
And we will meet again with the next episode. Thank you for listening.
